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Discussion: (23 comments)

  1. Of course, “gods” is used instead of “God” since the Satanists, who also consider Satan/Lucifer (the light) to be the “enlightenment” don’t want that religious interference in the atheist Communist Manifesto.

    1. morganovich

      um, was that a joke or a serious rant?

      if that was serious, you may have some real issues.

      i suspect that was a reference to all manner of classical mythology as thinks like fire were commonly views to be a gift from the gods whether stolen by prometheus or brought by ahura mazda or agni.

      it might also be taken to be an inclusive statement to involve the god of the christians and that of the hebrews and the muslims and the gods of the hindu and whomever else gets prayed to these days.

      last i checked there was the exact same amount of proof for the existence of all these deities.

      perhaps rather than seeing satan under every bush associating aehtism and communism (which has often been untrue – the pilgrims to plymouth were communists) you ought to just take a deep breath and try to focus on the actual issue here as opposed to non sequitor rants.

      alternately, if i have just been fished in here by an well executed piece of sarcasm, my apologies.

      1. Che is dead

        Yeah, what a rube. This post is about “Earth Hour”, and the power of Gaia ought to obvious to everyone by now. What’s next, doubts about global warming?

        Modern environmentalism is “the religion of choice for urban atheists … a perfect 21st century re-mapping of traditional Judeo-Christian beliefs and myths.” — Michael Crichton, San Francisco, 2003

    2. Jon Murphy

      who also consider Satan/Lucifer (the light)…

      Well, hang on…back up. Lucifer is The Light Bringer. Satan is the Fallen One. According to the Book of Enoch (which you will not find in the Bible, but is still a religious text), Lucifer (which is Hebrew for The Light Bringer) was God’s right-hand man…er, angel. He was an archangel, the highest rank of angel. When God created Man and ordered the angels to honor and obey Man as they obey Him, Lucifer became enraged. “Why should we obey Man? They were created from clay! We are divine! They live on Earth while we are seated at the Right Hand of God. Man should obey us!” Lucifer and a full half of the Heavenly Host rebelled against God. At the apex of the rebellion, Michael the Archangel cast out Lucifer from Heaven, where he plummeted to Earth. His landing on Earth created the Pit (aka Hell), with Lucifer, now Satan (which is Hebrew for The Fallen One) is forever interred. Frozen from the waist down, if you take Dante Alighieri’s telling.

      I say all this for two reasons: 1) to brag about how much I know about an obscure religious text and 2) to say that Satan and Lucifer are the same person in the same way Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader are the same person; same physical being but two totally separate entities.

      So, Satanists aren’t really Satanists. They are more Luciferites, but the name has come to stick.

      1. Very interesting Jon (NOT sarcasm) I may have learned that, but probably forgot it all – the fog is thick these days… Thanks for this and the one below.

  2. Must be hard to make a living as a light bulb salesmen there. On the other hand, the view of the night sky must be unreal.

    1. Jon Murphy

      You could have the best of both worlds: be a lightbulb salesmen in Arizona.

  3. The difference between now and the dark ages isn’t electricity, that’s simply the byproduct of the real difference: religion no longer rules the world. I wouldn’t be thanking god, I’d be thanking the scientists who discovered its power, the engineers who designed our massive gird and the capitalists who built it all from the ground up. And, I’m not trying to be insensitive to those 1.3 billion people, but I do think it’s hilarious that they show people living without electricity who are holding electric flashlights to generate light. I mean really? Do they think the use of electricity can only be defined where you’re getting it through the power outlet from a grid? By that logic, would my phone not be electrically powered?

    1. Che is dead

      “The difference between now and the dark ages isn’t electricity, that’s simply the byproduct of the real difference: religion no longer rules the world.” — Brandon

      Wow, that was really deep. You’re obviously very smart.

      I’m wondering though, on which side of that Korean border does religion have greater influence?

      1. Clearly the north. It’s not the religion you’re thinking of where there’s some magic deity in the heavens. Their religion is to worship their dear leader. It’s the same principle. Where someone is dogmatically telling you what to think, without the reason of empiricism. That’s the crux of religion, making up crap and then enforcing those beliefs on others. It’s the same thing that the catholic church did to Europe for all those centuries before the renaissance and enlightenment. Just in this instance, it’s a repressive government who brutally enforces their dogma. We can see the results by looking at Europe in the dark ages, or North Korea today.

        1. Che is dead

          Oh, I get it. Marxism is the opiate of the masses. Thanks for clearing that up.

          Where would we all be without people like you to show us the way toward the one true atheism?

        2. Jon Murphy

          I’d just like to caution a little bit here:

          There is a difference between dogma and faith in a religious context. What you are talking about, Brandon, is dogma. Dogma is not the crux of religion. Dogma is the bane of it, and you’ll find many Christian thinkers (St. Thomas Aquinas, for example) who make this point rather emphatically. One can be faithful without being dogmatic. In fact, faith is, to put it simply, belief in something even if you don’t understand it. You, most likely, have faith in science. You probably understand the very basics of how an airplane works, but not everything. Yet you still board the plane, no? That, in its own small way, is an act of faith. Religious faith acts in very much the same way. I understand some of who God is, but not everything. That does not stop my faith in Him.

          Faith invites questions. Dogma does not. The greatest men are those who question themselves, question their beliefs. Even Jesus Himself had a crisis of faith. Even Jesus Himself questioned.

          It’s a popular narrative that religion and science cannot go together. Nothing could be further from the truth. The two compliment each other. Science is one way of discovering the truth of God. But it is only one. The other way is through contemplation, but that is a sermon for another time.

          In the common historical narrative, the Church was/is the enemy of science. Again, this is not true. As Rome burned and the Empire fell apart, it was the Church that preserved books and knowledge. As feudal lords bashed each other’s heads in, it was the Church who opened universities. As kings crafted plans, it was the Church who crafted medicines. As plagues swept over the world in a sea of death, it was the Church who provided sanitary services for the dead. Now, this is not to say there aren’t eras in history where the church was resistant to change, but they are really the exception rather than the rule.

          The tl;dr version: please be careful painting everything with a wide brush. There’s a lot more cracks than you realize.

          1. Fair point. I’ll be more careful next time. Just irked me that Prof. Perry was calling electricity the gift of the gods. Seems like there’s some misplaced responsibility there. Even if the contention is that God is responsible for the creation of electricity and all its laws, he certainly did NOT gift it to us, we had to painstakingly discover it for ourselves.

          2. Jon Murphy

            Actually, I think he was just making a literary reference to the gift of fire to Prometheus. Kind of like how one might say “I just wrote this when the Muses took me.” He doesn’t necessarily believe in the Muses as the source of inspiration, but rather was just making a reference.

          3. Jon Murphy

            And I apologize if I came off as preachy. I’m a former monk and current church deacon so it just kind of happens :-P

          4. morganovich


            while i think your point about dogma vs faith is a good one, i think it’s also worth pointing out that there is some merit in what barndon is saying.

            the christain faith was once far more dogmatic. ask copernicus and galileo about that. the inquisition, the crusades, christian persecution under the romans, history is rife with such dogma. the shift of religion from enforced dogma to a more personal matter did unleash/permit a great deal of science and social progress in the west.

            this stands in marked contrast to many muslim nations that have stayed or slid back into religions extremism and dogma.

            iran was vibrant and intellectual, now it is not.

            i absolutely agree that religious faith need not create problems and may well help a society, but i think it is also can be one of the most direly anti progress forces when it crosses over into dogma and coercive extremism.

            i think this whole argument about “gift from the gods” is a tempest in a teacup. i have serious doubts that mark meant to imply anyhting religious with it. it’s simply a turn of phrase. absent these comments, it would not even have registered with me.

            perhaps it’s time to take a breath here and become a bit less touchy on this and shift our focus back to economics and political economy and away from theology/cosmology.

          5. Jon Murphy

            Of course he does. I’m not denying there weren’t periods of dogmatism. I’m just saying they are overplayed in the popular narrative.

        3. Brandon: “ It’s the same thing that the catholic church did to Europe for all those centuries before the renaissance and enlightenment.

          You might find this an interesting read.

          That and everything else Woods has written.

          1. Steven Hales

            Thanks Ron. Looks like a good read and cheap for Kindle.

  4. California will look similiar to North Korea at night in a few years.

  5. C James T

    Do any of you notice how off topic you all are. You went through the guard rail and are now off in the swamp somewhere. The entire issue is fighting the Luddite anti-futurists and you degenerated to anti-religion and other stupidities!! What xian or religion advocates deindustrializing the earth? Which wants us to go back to the dark ages? Which wants us to give up all technological development? Only neo-communism does! The watermelon greens following Lenin’s advice wishes to roll back the entire modern world to the green golden age that only existed in their fervid imaginations. If you can’t keep an attention span on target for more than 1 minute how can you fight anything?

    1. Jon Murphy

      That’s the great thing about spontaneous order, C James T. You never know what direction it will take!

      You can choose to fight it, or as I like to say:


      1. C James T

        I am all for spontaneous order, Loved The Boundaries of Order by Schaffer, but the one thing you need to understand about complexity theory is that emergent, spontaneous dynamic evolutionary systems ALWAYS increase in complexity, never decrease. This whole train of thought is rocketing back to preschool, highly entropic not syntropic.

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