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Discussion: (61 comments)

  1. Max Planck

    “The Boehner fallback plan that imploded last night looked like pretty good strategy. As political analyst Chris Krueger of the Washington Research Group argued in a research note yesterday, Plan B could have a) at least partially shielded House Republicans from blame for fiscal cliff dive, and b) increased their leverage in the negotiations.”

    I saw Kudlow tweeting about this and immediately dismissed it as lunacy. Krueger, out of the same empty bravado that fills this “think tanK’ actually thought this ruse was going to work, without the slightest bit of evidence to demonstrate why this is so.

    The polls despise the GOP, they despise Congress, they WANY higher taxes imposed, Obama’s approval rating is now at a post OBL high, and you all congratulated yourselves that Boenner’s strategy was the ultimate coup d’grace.

    You guys are unreal.

    1. NickDanger

      You use the monicker of a genius. I see you mock people here all the time. In all seriousness, what is your solution? What tax rates do you want? Are there any cuts to spending you would tolerate? The canadians got their financial house in order with 8 parts spending cuts to 1 part tax hikes. Would you accept that – and I don’t mean 10 years down the line for the spending cuts… I mean 8 parts this year – hell – I’d even be willing to see the Rand Paul penny plan be applied…

      So I ask this, again, with no disrespect. I’d really like to hear what your ideas are.

      1. Max Planck

        I like your handle. I’m a big “Firesign” fan myself.

        The deal that Boehner and Obama had would have done the job: that consisted of 87% cuts and 13% revenues. In fact, it was remarkably concessionary from a Democratic standpoint. Now, we’re even further down the road.

        I support the President’s plan to raise rates to 39.6%, and I am disappointed that he raised the threshold to $400k. There’s no need to. I think the small increases on cap gains and dividend income are good too. I would also like to make it impossible for a sh&tkicker like Romney to pay a 9% effective tax rate, whatever changes to the code that takes.

        I am NOT in favor of capping deductions at this delicate time.

        I do not believe we need 1000 military bases around the world, and oddly, some people here act as if they don’t have to pay for that. We are also blowing billions on the F-35, while no one on earth can even challenge the hardware we’re using NOW.

        We can end subsidies to big oil, as there is no such thing as “wildcatting” anymore.

        There are huge companies that pay less than 10% in taxes thanks to vagaries of our tax code, installed by a bought Congress. Before we “reform” our personal taxes, I suggest we reform that first. That’s where the money is.

        I’m getting off at the Antelope Freeway now.

        1. NickDanger

          Surprisingly, I agree with you on those things. I had no problem with the sequestration – the military can afford a 10% haircut – and the world won’t end when they get it. If it was a real. We know what happened last time they claimed cuts.

          I do think small businesses will get smacked around by the tax hike. I’ve seen a lot of small businesses that are on the edge. In my home town, stores and shops have been shuttering up. The increase on taxes on these folks are real. Even Obama said that he felt that you shouldn’t raise taxes on them at this time (two years ago). Without going into the stats at the IRS site (I tried, but I think it would be hours just to understand what is going on)….

          That being said, that was a good response. I think that we all need to fall back from the insults and debate honestly. The people on this site aren’t idiots or fools, and neither are you.

          I’ll try to read up on the IRS stats so I can give a better defended answer next time.

          1. Max Planck

            Just to underscore the point, here is a piece by the estimable William K. Black on the failed deal, and why he thinks Obama went too far.

            This President is so centrist, it hurts. Which doesn’t bother me as long as you’re not being centrist for it’s own sake:

            http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2012/12/lets-celebrate-the-failure-of-the-july-2011great-betrayal/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

  2. SeattleSam

    If any Plan A to Z does not constrain runaway spending and entitlements, what’s the point? Otherwise it’s like Captain Smith deciding to slow down a little before he hits the iceberg.

    1. If any Plan A to Z does not constrain runaway spending and entitlements, what’s the point?>/i>”…

      Absolutely!

  3. The GOP continues it delusions. It apparently believes it’s base is the larger electorate and refuses to believe anything to the contrary…

    1. Oh, I think everyone realizes now the takers like you have tipped the balance, Larry.

      The GOP did pass the Spending Reduction Act of 2012 yesterday. This is the 2nd time this yr they passed the bill after it died in Harry Reid’s Senate. The bill reduces the deficit by $242 billion over the sequester targets.

      You’re for that, right Larry? At least as a starting point? We know what a big deficit hawk you are. Obama has his specifics you’ve been demanding yet he still promises to veto the bill if it somehow passed the Senate.
      http://www.kansascity.com/2012/12/20/3974986/house-plans-votes-on-spending.html

      1. Max Planck

        “The GOP did pass the Spending Reduction Act of 2012 yesterday. This is the 2nd time this yr they passed the bill after it died in Harry Reid’s Senate. The bill reduces the deficit by $242 billion over the sequester targets.”

        The bill was a joke, as nobody wanted it, and it never had a chance of passing. These ARE the sake jerkwads who passed a repeal of ACA 32 times, knowing it wasn’t going anywhere.

        You lost. Get over it.

        1. “The bill was a joke, as nobody wanted it, and it never had a chance of passing.”

          It is a joke in the sense that there’s no way Obama is going to sign any bill that slows down the gravy train his parasite constituents are riding.
          It has passed the House 2x now. You’re right that it won’t pass the Democrat Senate. Democrats don’t do non-defense spending cuts. But at least Larry gets the specifics he and Obama have been pretending they want.

          “You lost. Get over it.”

          You’re right, we did. The people have spoken and they declared “give us more free stuff!” They elected the right guy for it.

          1. Max Planck

            “It is a joke in the sense that there’s no way Obama is going to sign any bill that slows down the gravy train his parasite constituents are riding.”

            Thank you for insulting the character of the majority of your fellow citizens.

            Romney was the biggest parasite of all, but of course, you blame everyone else.

          2. “Thank you for insulting the character of the majority of your fellow citizens. ”

            Yes, I know how you recoil in horror whenever someone lobs an insult, especially on this blog.

            Anyway, not the majority, just the idiot Obama voters. I think he got around 60 million votes. Population of the US is over 300 million.

          3. Max Planck

            “Yes, I know how you recoil in horror whenever someone lobs an insult, especially on this blog.”

            Some people can dish it out, but apparently, they can’t take it. Every slob on a message board resorts to feigned umbrage after they’ve called the other guy a “parasite,” “collectivist” “idiot” “Communist” “insane,” or whatever.

            “Anyway, not the majority, just the idiot Obama voters.”

            Right, the “idiots.” (sigh) It’s called the “electorate,” and now that all the votes have been counted, the President won by a sizable margin.

            In fact, if it weren’t for the gerrmandering the Congress would have a majority in Congress.

    2. Don’t you have your ObamaPhone to play with larry g?

  4. Todd Mason

    And the Rs likely will continue to lose for a decade thanks to gerrymandered congressional districts. What we saw last night was that only the primaries matter in these “safe” Republican districts, and none of the incumbents want their names on a tax hike vote even if it is blessed by Grover Norquist. The irony here is that Rs’ survival instincts pretty much oblige Boehner to back a bipartisan deal and to drive the wedge deeper between rational and irrational Rs.

    Conservatives like to say that takers won the election. The fact is that wackos lost it. That fact will become clearer and clearer as the Republican Party spins apart.

    1. “That fact will become clearer and clearer as the Republican Party spins apart.”

      Which they won’t. Conservatives have no other practical place to turn than the Republican party. Their desire to reduce out of control spending is as alive today, as it has ever been.

    2. I guess in todd world the non-parasitic are whackos…

      1. Todd Mason

        I am not the only person who thinks Tea Party types are wackos, if not dangerous wackos: http://american.com/archive/2012/december/the-tea-party-and-the-debt-ceiling-vs-economic-growth In fact, in the latest CNN/Opinion Research poll, 53 percent of respondents describe Republicans as too extreme.

        And Conover is right. The way to true up taxes as a percentage of GDP is to get GDP growing again. (I would argue his point on stimulus. If business won’t spend its $1.1 trillion hoard, banks won’t lend their $1.6 trillion and investors park their money in mutual funds, all as a result of consumers saving to recover from their missing trillions in home equity, then there is only one entity left to spend, intelligently or otherwise, eh?)

        But on to my point. Boehner’s choice now is go bipartisan or torch the economy, and it is straight down hill from there. Compromise in Washington translates to purity purges in super red home districts. The sanctified House Republicans, unpopular now, become pariahs. Sane Rs look for a new home.
        Once again, Juandos, have a nice day!

        1. RE: “Compromise in Washington translates to purity purges in super red home districts. ”

          which ultimately will lead to less GOP representatives in those districts which already are 50-50 on the GOP being too extreme.

          The GOP seems hell bent on self-destruction. It’s either get control of govt and rule by your principles or go down in flames. There is no middle ground compromise.

          it’s do or die.

        2. Todd Mason

          It occurs to me that I may be overvaluing Boehner’s skills as keeper of the insane asylum. So add to my whimper scenario above, another in which the Tea Party goes out with a bang, torching the economy and consigning the Rs to 20 years in the wilderness a la 1932.

          1. The ever more bizzare todd in his attempt to overreach reality says: “So add to my whimper scenario above, another in which the Tea Party goes out with a bang, torching the economy and consigning the Rs to 20 years in the wilderness a la 1932“…

            Just how do you dream this stuff up?

        3. I love Conover’s clownish comment right at the beginning: “By focusing on the debt limit, Tea Partiers are wasting valuable time on the wrong issue. What matters most is the size of our economy. We should be focusing on economic growth, not the debt ceiling number“…

          Having a fixed-dollar debt ceiling, on top of our spending laws and tax laws, is like having a redundant, nonsensical law stipulating that ‘five minus three must equal zero“…

          Conover like you todd would rather give reality a pass…

          Debt limit problems are obviously indicative of excessive spennding

          1. Todd Mason

            But the spending has already happened, blessed by the arm of government that controls the purse strings, which is Congress. Tell you credit card company that you can’t pay this month because the family debt limit hasn’t been raised. See what that gets you. But you know this. You’ll blow off Scarborough too. http://www.mediaite.com/tv/scarborough-chides-fellow-gopers-extreme-stances-led-to-worst-disarray-since-nixon-resignation/

            And good for you, Juandos. You are the best thing the Ds have going for them. Have a nice day!

          2. Scarborough?!?!?!

            Seriously you jest, right todd?

            What thinking person would take that clown’s word for the time of day let alone anything else?!?!

            Who’s next on your list? David Brookes of the New York Times?

            But the spending has already happened, blessed by the arm of government that controls the purse strings, which is Congress“…

            Well you’re almost right todd, the gutless RINOs in the House have given permission to spend that ‘monopoly money‘ but it has yet to be all spent…

            Still granted the House RINOs caved to often to Obama…

            Maybe Boehner and Cantor shouldn’t have been to quick in purging the conservative Republicans from some of the committees…

            Susan Ferrechio of the Washington Examiner reported: Republican House leaders, who had hoped that passing Plan B would give them leverage in the stalled negotiation, pulled the bill after a brief, closed-door meeting with their rank and file Thursday evening. When it was clear that conservatives wouldn’t back Boehner, the speaker left the Capitol without speaking to reporters

          3. here’s where the money went:“…

            A bit of baseless New York Times edeitorial larry g?

            Really?

            What’s next?

            Wikipedia?

            Oh wait! You’ve already done that…

            Amazingly, the U.S. national debt is now up to 16.3 trillion dollars. When Barack Obama first took office the national debt was just 10.6 trillion dollars

          4. Sources: Congressional Budget Office; Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

            tell me what Obama and not Congress ADDED.

            I think you’ll find that every penny was voted on by Congress and much of it before Obama took office and you can verify this because there has been no new budget in over 1000 days…. and what they are spending is what was already approved – just carried forward with continuing resolutions.

          5. I think you’ll find that every penny was voted on by Congress“…

            So why did you bring up Bush larry g?

            much of it before Obama took office and you can verify this because there has been no new budget in over 1000 days“…

            Right about the budget, you’ll have to take that up with Harry Reid…

            Wrong about the timing…

            Can you say ‘continuing resolution’?

          6. re: So why did you bring up Bush larry g?

            because it was UNDER BUSH NOT Obama that much of the spending was approved – that continues under Obama.

            If you seriously look at the data that comes from the CBO, you will see the specifics of the spending and under what President it was voted by Congress.

            Much of the current deficit and debt comes from spending that was approved by the GOP under Bush- two wars, increases to DOD and Medicare Part D (and A – which is the real issue with Medicare because it basically removed the 20% co-pay).

            Obama cannot cut the spending that the GOP approved under Bush, he can only sign a new budget that passes both houses of Congress which contains cuts – and he has indicated he would sign rollback cuts – on the items that were increased but not selective cuts to only some things.

            He supports the sequester cut approach – which would rollback some of the DOD increases and he also supports the 700+ billion cuts to Medicare which are the subsidies for Part C “gap” coverage paid to private companies. Eliminating these subsidies will require Medicare beneficiaries to pay more including the 20% co-pay which was in the original Medicare before Congress under Bush started subsidizing gap coverage.

            Right now, we spend about 1.3 trillion on DOD and the rest of National Defense even though we do not take in more than 1.4T in taxes.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Receipts_-_FY_2007.png

            this chart is in Wiki but it’s source is the CBO.

            If you were going to balance the budget on cuts alone – you’d have to cut a trillion dollars from National Defense and Entitlements. DOD would have to go back to Clinton era funding – about 1/2 of what they get right now.

            There are virtually no DOD cuts in the GOP budgets that come from the HOUSE. It’s all in entitlements – and it does not balance the budget. Instead it counts on tax cut to “create” growth to pay for the DOD budget.

            It creates no extra money to buy down the debt.

            In other words, it’s a totally bogus and cynical budget that they know can’t even get GOP votes in the Senate.

            It makes no attempt to truly address the real problem. It’s only purpose is symbolism.

            This pretty much defines the GOP for the last few years.

            They helped to create the deficit. They spent 4 years saying we have a “spending” problem not a revenue problem and they refuse to submit a real budget that truly addresses the deficit and debt head on.

            then we have folks like you that say that the increasing debt under Obama – was created by Obama – which it was not – save for the stimulus spending – which Congress did approve (mostly Dems).

            We did not get here overnight. The Congress under Bush started with a a balanced budget and then cut taxes and increased spending – and deficits started appearing and accelerated and got even worse when the meltdown occurred and tax revenues fell even further behind relative to spending.

            Obama’s primary contribution to the debt was two years of stimulus – about a trillion dollars.

            If you check out the link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/adding-to-the-deficit-bush-vs-obama/2012/01/31/gIQAQ0kFgQ_graphic.html

            you can see exactly the specifics of where the increased spending came from – and under which POTUS.

          7. because it was UNDER BUSH NOT Obama that much of the spending was approved – that continues under Obama“…

            Wrong again larry g and your wiki and wapo links have already been debunked more than once so I feel no need to do it again…

            Oh yeah, who was in complete charge of the House & Senate in ’08 and ’09?

          8. ” Oh yeah, who was in complete charge of the House & Senate in ’08 and ’09?”

            how about the 8 years before that?

            the point here is that much of the spending that continues to contribute to the deficit was approved by the Congress under Bush.

            and that’s not Wiki.. that’s the simple truth.

          9. larry g still trying morph his delusions into reality says: “how about the 8 years before that?

            the point here is that much of the spending that continues to contribute to the deficit was approved by the Congress under Bush“…

            What utter nonsense…

          10. the point here is that much of the spending that continues to contribute to the deficit was approved by the Congress under Bush“…

            What utter nonsense…

            Medicare Part D ? that’s 180 billion, right?

          11. Medicare Part D ? that’s 180 billion, right?“…

            Sadly as bad as that is larry g that’s going to be chump change comparatively speaking to ObamaCare…

          12. Max Planck

            “What utter nonsense…”

            Not at all. For someone accuses others of being “delusional” you have a pretty hard time digesting empirical evidence stuffed in front of your face.

            This is what Bush policies gave us: http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2009/01/09/bush-on-jobs-the-worst-track-record-on-record/

            Naturally, the Wall Street Journal is something we can denounce as a biased rag, right?

            Fool.

          13. I denounce the WSJ all the time…

            They have more than their fair share of Keynesian libtards on their staff…

          14. Max Planck

            These answers prove once and for all – as if anyone needed convincing before- that you can’t be taken seriously as you have the intellectual maturity of a 6 year old and the intellectual depth of a rock.

            You ignore HARD DATA, and dimiss it, by simply blaming the source that REPRINTS it. The facts aren’t made up- they’re simply reported, and since they fly in the face of your twisted beliefs, you sit there cackling like a retard in an asylum, trying to avoid answering to them. This is an example of your intellect. According to you, The Wall Street Journal is now a champion of Keynsianism, and for that reason alone, the data they assembled can be easily dismissed.

            Gee- let’s have a big “LOL” for old Juandos, eh?

            And you accuse OTHERS who present facts on this board of being “trolls.” You’re brainless- you bring nothing to this forum but infantile giggling.

            Think we’re done with you,

          15. These answers prove once and for all – as if anyone needed convincing before- that you can’t be taken seriously as you have the intellectual maturity of a 6 year old and the intellectual depth of a roc“…

            So says the fool who offers up Ezra Klein as an excuse to bolster his paltry thought processes such as they are…

          16. Max Planck

            “Oh yeah, who was in complete charge of the House & Senate in ’08 and ’09?”

            the standard reply, the stuff of every wingnut parrot. These budget problems started with Bush, and his cratering of the economy only made it worse. We could not have possibly cut spending in the midst of such a contraction. The results would have been even more disastrous.

            Bush torched our wealth.

          17. the standard reply, the stuff of every wingnut parrot“…

            Oops! The maxie boy stumbles into a fact that has undercut his whining rant…

            Oh dear!

          18. Todd Mason

            You’ll have to excuse Juandos, Larry g, he suffers from GOPopia, or inability to see past his net worth.

          19. re: Part A, wrong. It is Part C – the Supplemental GAP coverage. My bad.

          20. Max Planck

            The funny thing is that most GOP supporters don’t HAVE any net worth to speak of. They’re strongest supporters are poor and uneducated and come from the economically weakest states in the Union. They are absolutely convinced that Democrats will steal their guns and their bibles from them.

          21. maxie boy has yet another psychotic break withreality: “The funny thing is that most GOP supporters don’t HAVE any net worth to speak of. They’re strongest supporters are poor and uneducated and come from the economically weakest states in the Union. They are absolutely convinced that Democrats will steal their guns and their bibles from them“…

            Oh man! This is just to funny for words!

            Talk about delusional I’m guessing maxie boy rand out of his lithium some time ago…

            maxie boy does make one heck of a parrot though…

          22. Max Planck

            Which are the wealthy states and which are the poor ones?

            http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/04/the_red_state_ripoff.html

          23. Ezra Klein maxie boy?!?!?

            LMAO!

            Who’s next on your roster of morons?

            Paul Krugman maybe?

            LOL!

          24. Poor todd still having trouble with regular English so he’s still trying to make words up: “You’ll have to excuse Juandos, Larry g, he suffers from GOPopia, or inability to see past his net worth“…

            Not only is this statement meaningless in the extreme but you too like maxie boy and larry g have a real problem with getting a grip on reality…

            Well its entertainment if nothing else…

  5. “Some people can dish it out, but apparently, they can’t take it. ”

    Take what? I couldn’t care less if you insult me. You’re the one crying into your pillow for me “insulting the character” of the millions of welfare bums who voted for more free shit. Talk about dishing it out but not being able to take it.

    “Right, the “idiots.” (sigh)”

    oh, sob! Maxie runs to the smelling salts!

    ” It’s called the “electorate,” and now that all the votes have been counted, the President won by a sizable margin.”

    Yep. Nobody disputes that. Bottom feeders are doing their victory lap. The decline is now irreversible.

    1. The GOP did pass the Spending Reduction Act of 2012 yesterday.”

      ha ha ha ha

      righto

      more pandering to their base with no intention to put forth a real proposal.

      the GOP believes their base represents a majority of voters – DESPITE the election. They live in LA LA Land like some who blather here.

      1. Larry,

        “more pandering to their base with no intention to put forth a real proposal.”

        They passed a real proposal that exceeded the sequester targets. You said you wanted specifics. You said you wanted deficit reduction. You’re a liar, Larry.

        1. ” They passed a real proposal that exceeded the sequester targets. You said you wanted specifics. You said you wanted deficit reduction. You’re a liar, ”

          Nope. the proposal has to have SOME bi-partisan support, some chance that it will be supported by some others besides hard cord righties.

          Your guys are not interested in GOVERNING. They’re only interesting in pandering to their hard right base with no intention to try to actually try to find enough compromise to go forward.

          Your guys simply do not want to govern. They spent 4 years waiting to get control and do what they wanted instead of compromise, then they lost, so now they’re back to gridlock on purpose – vandalism of government.

          Ronald Reagan is rolling over in his grave.

          and I do expect you, like others here, to get into more name calling…. soon the douchbag pejorative will appear, I’m sure

          1. At least they offered SOME sort of budget proposal. When’s the last time the Democrats presented a budget again (and I’m not talking the two Obama presented in the last term which garnered a total of 0 votes)?

          2. how about listing out the latest GOP proposal?

          3. re: what budget.

            Congress cannot agree on a NEW budget but BOTH sides of the aisle have AGREED to operate on Continuing Resolutions of the prior budget.

            If there was not bi-partisan agreement to do that – the govt WOULD run out of money.

            so the lack of a new budget is due to BOTH sides and BOTH sides AGREE to continue to the prior budget until they can agree (which may be never!).

            The GOP no longer wants to compromise on a budget. They spent the last 4 years saying “wait until Nov” when they assumed they would take control again and pass their budget no matter what the Dems wanted.

            The problem with the GOP is they are so delusional they simply do not accept the reality that their base – to which they pander – is not a majority of the electorate.

            But the GOP continues blithely on – pretending that they don’t have to compromise and that “some day” they’be back in charge and then do things their way.

            they’re not fit to govern. They’re basically vandals who seek to dismantle government if they get the chance and if they can’t get the chance, then they throw sand in the gears.

            It’s taken the American people a long time to see what the GOP is doing but I think they got the message in the last election – and if things continue this way- the next election is going to result in more losses for the GOP.

          4. Never miss the opportunity to say something even than the lasti time you said something, eh larry g?

            Keep an eye on your SNAP card…

            I’ve been told that they’re hard to replace…

          5. there is no serious GOP proposal that would balance the budget and buy down the debt that even the GOP in the Senate would sign on to.

          6. larry g hoping to morph delusion into reality says: “there is no serious GOP proposal that would balance the budget and buy down the debt that even the GOP in the Senate would sign on to“…

            Liar, I’ve you the link a few times now…

    2. Max Planck

      “Take what? I couldn’t care less if you insult me. You’re the one crying into your pillow for me “insulting the character” of the millions of welfare bums who voted for more free shit. ”

      if that’s what you thought the election turned on, you’re not worth engaging. Pathetic creature.

      1. re: ” you’re not worth engaging. Pathetic creature.”

        Max – be careful… you might offend their fragile sensibilities… they’re only pretending to be hard butts..in real life they’re really nice !

        ;-)

      2. “if that’s what you thought the election turned on, you’re not worth engaging. Pathetic creature.”

        Ha, somehow I’ll try to get over your disappointment. I’ll take some solace in that you appear to share ideological kinsmanship with Larry, probably the dumbest troll on the internet.

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