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Discussion: (64 comments)

  1. Nick Bradley

    Industrialized states have a lower growth rate in industrial output than less industrialized states. Who’d a thunk it?

    Fancy zero sum job poaching there Mark

    Derp derp.

    1. Citizen Buddy

      Nick, do you understand the chart Mark constructed?

      Automotive Manufacturing Output in non right-to-work states is in reverse.

    2. Che is dead

      Growth?

      The UAW, which once counted 1.5 million members now has fewer than 390,000, the fewest since 1940.

      The union is like a cancer that kills off every industry that it infests – autos, steel, etc.

      Derp derp.

      1. juandos
    3. givemefreedom

      Nick B. : Fancy zero sum job poaching there Mark

      What makes you believe that all the growth in jobs in rtw states was poaching from forced union states?

      Perhaps many of those jobs would not have existed at all if there were no rtw states? It could be easily argued that the total employment in automotive Manufacturing is higher in the US because there are rtw states.

  2. Actually, Nick Bradley, as of 2013 Right to Work states collectively represent a higher share of manufacturing output than they do of total employment. And even before Michigan and Indiana adopted Right to Work laws in 2012 it would have been a gross distortion to refer to the 22 states then banned forced unionism as “less industrialized.” It’s not the 1950’s any more, for goodness’ sake.

  3. Nick Bradley

    “Engine and Other Machine Assemblers” earn 25% less in Alabama than Michigan.

    Let’s call that the ‘Freedom Dividend’

    Right to work for less

    http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes512031.htm

    1. Che is dead

      “Volkswagen AG is paying newly hired workers at its Chattanooga, Tennessee plant $14.50 per hour. That is almost exactly what a second-tier UAW worker would make in Detroit. In a sign of demand for jobs at that pay level, the Chattanooga plant had 85,000 applications for more than 2,000 jobs. VW workers have been promised $19.50 after three years on the job. That is just above the $19.28 per hour maximum that entry-level workers at GM would make over the term of the four-year contract now before workers for ratification.” — Truth About Cars

      And no union dues. Let’s call that the ‘Freedom Dividend’

      1. Jon Murphy

        And no union dues.

        And a cost of living ~2.5% less.

        Doing an extremely rough calculation, that $14.50 wage in TN is worth about $14.77 in Detroit.

        That’s not including the tax burden.

    2. morganovich

      only a true thug and autocrat would try to portray allowing people to make their own decisions as oppression and the ability of unions to force owners to hire only them and to force people to join and pay the union in order to work as freedom.

      Orwell would be SO proud of you. that is doublespeak in a very pure form.

    3. marque2

      You also need to consider the cost of living in both states. It is probably less expensive by about 20% in Alabama than Michigan – but no doubt Union wages are above norm . this is probably great for those in the system , but it suppresses hiring to the point where the overall gain to the community is less than if they just went with free wages.

      1. Jon Murphy

        Which is what can happen.

        After all, is it better to have 10 people employed at $10,000/day or 100 employed at $5,000/day?

    4. givemefreedom

      Nick B: “Engine and Other Machine Assemblers” earn 25% less in Alabama than Michigan.
      Let’s call that the ‘Freedom Dividend’
      Right to work for less

      According to your link, Assemblers in Grand Rapids-Wyoming, MI, earn 35% less than assemblers in Warren-Troy-Farmington Hills, MI Metropolitan Division.

      What do you call that?

  4. marmico

    Comment removed by a blog administrator.

    1. givemefreedom

      We all know who the doofus is Marmico. It is not Dr. Perry.

      Thanks for the laugh though!!

      1. El Chupacabra

        Word. Sharpen up, Marmy.

      2. marmico

        Comment removed by a blog administrator.

    2. Harold Saxson

      You do realize your link has nothing to do with this at all?

      I like how both Marmico and BobbyP try to pretend there is some kind of feud going on.

      Seriously, do you guys not read anything, or just not expect us to?

  5. Jon Murphy

    Some of the arguments I am seeing here are disturbingly similar to ones made against globalization and for minimum wage (I say “disturbingly” because these arguments have just as much ignorance as the min wage/globalization arguments).

    One of the main arguments one sees with RTW is that wages are lower in these states. There are several problems with this argument, but I will focus on the main two:

    1) You need to adjust for cost of living. $20 in a place with high taxes and costs doesn’t go as far as $20 in a place with lower taxes and costs.

    2) A labor agreement is an agreement between an employer and employee. It is no one else’s business, regardless of how well-intentioned you are.

    Number 1 really speaks for itself, so I will skip it for now (unless someone needs clarification).

    Let’s look at Number 2. When a person is looking for work, he has a number of alternatives (including not working). When he accepts a job, he believes it is the best of all available options; therefore, he becomes better off. This is necessarily true.

    However, labor unions and other price-raising methods (minimum wage, “fair trade”) restrict options due to the Law of Demand which states, in part, that as the price of something rises, less will be consumed and more will be supplied, all else held equal. Not only does it restrict the number of openings, but it also increases competition. Since our hypothetical man’s options are limited, we can reasonably argue that his ability to make himself better off is limited as well.

    The people who argue that wages should be a certain limit (regardless of they are arguing for unionized wages, minimum wage, or regulations regarding overseas operations) before a worker may obtain a job are actually harming the very people they want to help (not to mention demonstrating an extreme level of arrogance). In extreme cases, they may even be making the person worse off! A factory in Tennessee may pay relatively lower wages than one in Ohio, but to deny a person a job simply because he is willing to work for less than you think he should is not compassion; it’s insanity.

    There is nothing inherently wrong with unions, but they should not receive special treatment.

    Power to the people. Power to the worker. Let them decide. Not you. Not me. Them

    1. Walt Greenway

      Nice writing, Jon!

      Let them decide? Yes, my 44-year-old anti-union relative from South Carolina is visiting us. He is on total and permanent disability from a large non-union employer for a repetitive stress related back injury. When I asked him what the ergonomic risk assessment was for his job after he explained his job was to pick up heavy turbine parts off the floor and put them onto a conveyor belt, he asked me what ergonomics was.

      I explained GM/UAW plants all have an ergonomics team of union and salary members that must approve any production job after a risk assessment. If the job fails as designed, either the job is redesigned or automated (everything about the job is measured and employees of different heights and weight wear a special harness attached to a computer to determine stress on body parts). He said I guess it is too late for me. I wonder if anyone wants to see a picture of his multiple back surgeries where he had some vertebra fused and some removed or are all emotional tear-jerking pictures here just of babies who have been injured in police raids?

      Unions, it’s not just about the money.

      1. Jon Murphy

        Unions, it’s not just about the money.

        Agreed. I think unions are a vital aspect of a free market. I have long supported the right to association, and unions are a great way to do that. Just as a corporation has the ability to coordinate more effectively, so does a union. The ability of a worker to negotiate is enhanced in a union, especially if his individual negotiation skill is poor.

        Just like I said: no special favors and let people decide.

      2. Walt

        Did your adult and presumably mentally competent relative *choose* to work for this employer and perform tasks that were potentially injurious?

        Those who *choose* to take actions that may harm them are less sympathetic than those who have done nothing to bring injury on themselves, but are injured through the intentional actions of others.

        I suppose that’s too much nuance for you.

        Sure, let’s see some pictures of the damaged back. I need a good cry.

        1. Walt Greenway

          “Did your adult and presumably mentally competent relative *choose* to work for this employer and perform tasks that were potentially injurious?”

          Not really his choice. He did not have the information to make an informed choice. I gave him the information way too late. I don’t know how to attach pictures here. He’s mess. I can’t believe an employer can have forty-year-old men picking 50 pound parts off the floor and putting them on a four foot high moving conveyor because we outlawed those jobs about 1980. You will not find an ergonomics module in OSHA because employers fought it off.

          He does not stand a chance collecting Workman’s Compensation in business friendly South Carolina, so he gets to go on welfare until his Social Security disability kicks in a year or two from now.

          The child who was burned choices were made by the adults around him: the pusher, the parents, and the police. I hope they all have a hard time looking in the mirror over that one.

          1. morganovich

            walt-

            that seems like a completely nonsensical standard.

            it was absolutely his choice. they showed him the job, he took it. he could have quit after the first day if he thought it was too hard/strenuous/unsafe.

            he could have said no.

            so yes, it was really his choice. it was absolutely his choice.

            he put himself in that position and it was not subtle or hidden. he knew exactly what he was lifting. if it hurt, he should have stopped.

            this notion that it was not an informed choice seems outlandish. even if he did not understand the risks, they were obvious and any competent adult ought to be able to assess them. lifting heavy things has risk. pretty much everyone knows that.

            this one is on him.

            the fact is that there are likely people who could happily and safely do that job. banning it is the wrong answer.

            how much of a mess he is is not the issue. the issue is that it was up to him to make a choice.

            if it were somehting he could not have known (like there was benzine in the workplace) that would be different and i would be all over the employer to be responsible, but this was pretty much as obvious as it gets.

            the notion that you need a union or an ergonomics class to teach you what is too heavy and to recognize pain before it becomes a severe injury is just ridiculous.

            he did have a choice. you ALWAYS have a choice. he made a bad one. that is on him.

          2. Walt Greenway

            “he did have a choice. you ALWAYS have a choice. he made a bad one. that is on him.”

            Some people see it differently. That the employer will not write an OSHA 301 in South Carolina and would in Michigan with a labor union’s support means you are on your own when you’re hurt on the job there. You don’t even show up as hurt on the job without a 301. He did not know that before because as a good Christian he just figured employers would not do that to anyone and everything he knew from his upbringing was that labor unions were bad. He’s a union supporter now, but it’s too late for him.

          3. morganovich

            walt-

            you answer appears to be a complete non sequitur.

            one can say “some people think the moon is made of cheese”. that does not make it so or make it a valid viewpoint. that sort of subjective moral relativism is internally inconsistent and self refuting.

            the rest of your comment is similarly irrelevant. they showed him the work. he took the job. he kept coming back. clearly, he knew the situation and had plenty of warning.

            that was a choice. nothing you have said even bears on choice much less any valid reason one might feel he had none.

            if a guy is going to blunder through life assuming that everyhting that has not been explicitly described as dangerous to him is safe, he’ll get hurt.

            i mean, this is common sense 101. do you tend to pick up rattlesnakes? do you try to carry your own 12 foot sofa down the stairs by yourself?

            i mean, it’s a wonder we have all managed to avoid crippling injury without osha to warn us. being paid for something does not excuse you from using basic common sense and knowing your own limits.

            you are trying abrogate any need for personal responsibility and basic common sense and situational awareness. that’s a ridiculous standard.

            if you go to the gym and put too much weight on the bar and blow your back out doing squats, that’s YOUR fault.

            you are supposed to know better. the world does not exist to babysit you and it is not the world’s fault if you need babysitting.

          4. Walt Greenway

            morganovich, I actually trend to agree with a lot you said. This is a guy who has told me for the last 20 years how I was wasting my money paying union dues. Now I am collecting a UAW/GM pension and the company he has worked for 15 years kicked him to the curb and he is likely looking at welfare. I has to suppress a laugh when he said he could not believe that people whose kids he coached in little league and went to church with could treat him that way: that’s way naive for how i look at things. We will still help where we can because he is family.

    2. Well said Jon.

      Allowing people to make their own choices seems so obvious as to be self evident. It’s hard to understand why so many people don’t agree.

      1. Walt Greenway

        Ron, I agree people should make their own choices, but unlike my wife’s relatives who used to be union coal miners who now have to work non-union to make a living for their families, my relative did not even have enough information to make a choice. He was taught unions were bad in school. He had never heard of ergonomics for some reason.

        1. Who’s fault is it that he doesn’t know what ergonomics is?

          1. Walt Greenway

            Rick, I don’t know about fault, but you have to know something exists to know anything about it. Maybe the same educational system that taught my relative about labor unions should have given him some good with the bad. Labor unions seem to be a polarizing topic with no in-between.

            My wife’s relatives know they are working in an unsafe manner because they have seen safer union mines, so at least their choice is not made through ignorance. We knew from them the Massey explosion was just a matter of when and not if, and luckily none were killed or injured that day.

          2. Walt,
            “Maybe the same educational system that taught my relative about labor unions should have given him some good with the bad.”

            I think you’ve listened to to many union leaders telling scary stories. I’ve lived my whole life in the deep south. I went to HS and college in the deep south and all 4 of my kids have been educated in the deep south and in all those years I don’t recall any anti-union indoctrination at all. You also seem to be forgetting that the south was almost all Democrats back then.

        2. Walt

          [M]y relative did not even have enough information to make a choice.

          Not to be unkind, but it sounds more like a thinking problem than an information problem. Most of us know when something is dangerous or hurts us. We know this outside of the workplace as well. It’s not necessary to know the word “ergonomics” to know that something is harmful.

          On the plus side, can we assume that someone else paid for his medical treatment and is now paying for his disability income?

          Don’t get me wrong, I’m all in favor of workplace safety and ergonomic studies, and I applaud employers who take steps to protect their workers.

          He was taught unions were bad in school.

          Well, he must have been home schooled then, he wouldn’t likely have heard that in any public school.

          1. Walt Greenway

            “Not to be unkind, but it sounds more like a thinking problem than an information problem. Most of us know when something is dangerous or hurts us. We know this outside of the workplace as well. It’s not necessary to know the word “ergonomics” to know that something is harmful.”

            He knew he was hurt, but medical kept sending him back out to the floor. He has two kids and a wife to support and said he did not really have choice.

            “On the plus side, can we assume that someone else paid for his medical treatment and is now paying for his disability income? “

            Much of the medical treatment is not being paid, and his six months of disability pay is up next month. Social Security is routinely denied at the first step, and you have to be off a year to apply.

            “Well, he must have been home schooled then, he wouldn’t likely have heard that in any public school.”

            No, that unions are bad is taught in the South because it is rolled into education, religion, and their way of life. Some of these folks actually believe if they join a union they will go to hell.

          2. Che is dead

            No, that unions are bad is taught in the South because it is rolled into education, religion, and their way of life. Some of these folks actually believe if they join a union they will go to hell.

            Yeah, yeah, yeah, and all of you northern leftists still believe in a free lunch.

          3. Che is dead

            Have you got a link to the BLS stats that support your claim that non-union plants in South Carolina, or the South in general, have a disproportionate number of work related injuries?

            I’d look it up for you, but I’m not the one serving up the bullshit.

          4. Walt Greenway

            “Have you got a link to the BLS stats that support your claim that non-union plants in South Carolina, or the South in general, have a disproportionate number of work related injuries?”

            I’ll say the same thing his employer said: What workplace injury? Where would something that supposedly did not happen show up in the statistics? The workers themselves don’t have the power to make that happen, and they fall through the cracks in the system.

            Besides less effective labor unions in the south, one of the reasons businesses locate there are lees restrictive laws and enforcement. From a worker’s perspective, who has a job, you would rather get hurt where you have a better chance of supporting your family afterwards. I agree this costs money and might keep you from getting a job in the first place from the employer’s perspective. People, both business and workers, do what they have to do to make a profit or a living.

          5. Che is dead

            No, that unions are bad is taught in the South because it is rolled into education …” — Walt

            Then I’m sure that you’ll have no problem locating a story for us about anti-union indoctrination in the Southern schools. Kinda like this one about pro-union elementary lessons in CA:

            A “Labor Studies Curriculum for Elementary Schools,” entitled “The Yummy Pizza Company,” takes up to 20 classroom hours over a two-week period. Important concepts in the 10 lessons, such as the value of work and money management, are critical components, but are quickly overshadowed by the fact that 40% of the curriculum is about forming Pizza Makers Union Local 18. That’s right – the program is focused on teaching kids to unionize…

            Art lessons are incorporated into the curriculum. Students are assigned the task of designing a union logo and membership cards. Math is also a focus. Part of the lesson involves calculating “union dues as a percentage of wages.”

            But the lesson doesn’t end with forming the union. What’s next? Contract negotiations, of course! Yes, elementary kids are then taught the finer points of collective bargaining. Members of the Pizza Makers Union may “vote to accept offer, negotiate further or strike.”

            The next lesson covers “Unions in the real world,” where “Students will learn about a real union and how it helped its members,” as well as “some labor history and a few prominent labor leaders.” — Townhall

            Don’t you just hate indoctrination?

          6. Walt Greenway

            “Then I’m sure that you’ll have no problem locating a story for us about anti-union indoctrination in the Southern schools. Kinda like this one about pro-union elementary lessons in CA: “

            I attended an Arkansas public school system for a while. That’s where I learned the term “featherbedding.” The schools in Michigan were no better at slanting labor unions the other way. Like I said, few people want to look at the whole picture.

          7. Walt

            He knew he was hurt, but medical kept sending him back out to the floor.

            In that case, I guess he has his multiple named defendants on his lawsuit, and unlike the Georgia SWAT team suit, it’s not the taxpayers who will have to dig into their pockets.

            He has two kids and a wife to support and said he did not really have choice.

            Nonsense. We always have choices. Sometimes none of them are particularly good. Lifting parts onto a conveyor sounds like a no-brainer minimum wage job. There are lots of jobs in that price range range that don’t hurt your back.

          8. Walt Greenway

            “In that case, I guess he has his multiple named defendants on his lawsuit, and unlike the Georgia SWAT team suit, it’s not the taxpayers who will have to dig into their pockets.”

            The taxpayers will be supporting him next month. He might have to come to Michigan to make that happen, and his family is here to help.

            “Nonsense. We always have choices. Sometimes none of them are particularly good. Lifting parts onto a conveyor sounds like a no-brainer minimum wage job. There are lots of jobs in that price range range that don’t hurt your back.”

            He did not feel like he had a choice, he stayed and worked hurt because that is what you do when you are on your own, now he’s hurt, and the taxpayers will pay if and until a settlement is reached in a couple of years.

          9. He has two kids and a wife to support and said he did not really have choice.

            Come to think of it, that sounds a lot like what that woman said whose house burned, and who went with her husband and 4 children to live with her sister in Georgia.

            Once there, her best choice seemed to be to sleep 6 in a room. Her youngest child had no choices at all in the matter of where he lived or slept.

            Those who burst in in the middle of the night DID have choices, however, and they chose to throw a flashbang into a baby’s crib, burning him nearly to death.

            As a caring person , you might consider asking your disabled relative and his family to move to MI to stay with you until he can get his fed disability, food stamps, free school lunches, etc. squared away – and until his lawsuit is settled.

          10. Walt Greenway

            “Once there, her best choice seemed to be to sleep 6 in a room. Her youngest child had no choices at all in the matter of where he lived or slept.”

            I agree that all the adults in that situation let this child down: the pusher who sold dangerous illegal drugs from the house, the parents who stayed after they knew it was a drug house, and the police who should have been more careful.

            I don’t support making marijuana illegal, but I’m not going to say we should decriminalize meth, cocaine, or heroin. I realize people feel differently about that, and that’s their right.

          11. “Some of these folks actually believe if they join a union they will go to hell.”

            I lived in San Antonio for 6 yrs. I never ran across these banjo playing, toothless, yokel stereotypes Walt is serving up.

          12. I attended an Arkansas public school system for a while. That’s where I learned the term “featherbedding.”

            I worked on construction sites for a few summers when I was going to school. That’s where I learned the term “featherbedding.”

        3. Unions obliterated the automobile industry and stuck the taxpayers with billions.

          But by God they have ergonomic studies!

          1. Walt Greenway

            You can learn from the ergonomic studies or ignore the technology and cripple people for life: your choice.

          2. Che is dead

            “But by God they have ergonomic studies!”

            I guess that they feel that we are going to need those studies to help us all with the ergonomics of carrying their freeloading membership around on our backs.

    3. Jon Murphy

      Interesting how these things take on a life of their own.

      1. Walt Greenway

        Who wouldn’t like a “right-to-work” and hate “forced unionism”? You know you are not dealing with an objective analysis when you see those terms. I agree unions can hinder employers and even cost jobs, but I also know when things get bad and you’re hurt you need someone who is on your side. No one in the building with any authority is on your side when you get hurt in a non-union shop. You have to seek outside help in that case.

        1. Jon Murphy

          Not sure if that was directed at me, Walt. If it was, I am not quite sure to what you are responding to.

          I was just commenting on my amusement how this particular thread has changed so differently from what my original comment was.

          1. Walt Greenway

            Jon, I responded to you knowing everyone reads the comments. I thought you had a nice balanced position, but others who replied since then can’t see any good at all about labor unions and just want them gone regardless of how it is done, so I spoke my opinion.

          2. Jon Murphy

            Ah gotcha. Thanks!

  6. chuck martel

    There are other reasons that automobile and other manufacturing has moved to right-to-work states from heavily unionized states. A major one is air conditioning. Without effective air conditioning Phoenix, for instance, would probably have a population of maybe 10,000 sweating souls and no Motorola or Intel fabs. Much of the deep south would still be dependent on agriculture and fans. Domestic air conditioning didn’t become common until after the 1960s.

  7. givemefreedom

    Walt, seems that there is an epidemic of disability at this one union workplace. Maybe they need more ergonomic studies?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/nyregion/21lirr.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    1. Walt Greenway

      Abuse of the system designed to protect workers should be addressed on both sides. Failure to acknowledge a workplace injury by an employer is no better or worse than workers faking injuries to collect money they are not owed.

      1. givemefreedom

        walt you are the one that brought up the example of your relative’s disability in support of union, “it is not always about money” was your comment. Your implication was that unions do worker safety better than non unions, ergonomics and all that. Based on that one example.

        I showed you a union where “In each year since 2000, between 93 percent and 97 percent of employees over 50 who retired with 20 years of service also received disability payments. ”

        Either this union is the most dangerous place to work in world or they are all lying.

        Seems to me that it is usually always about money with unions.

        1. Walt Greenway

          “Seems to me that it is usually always about money with unions.”

          That’s your viewpoint, and you have a right to it. I don’t see it that way. I see it as union representation I pay for to lower my financial risk the same way as automobile, health, or house insurance.

          1. givemefreedom

            Well if that is your only standard then you joined the qwrong union, you should have joined the railway workers union in the link I provided. That union lower he financial risk to zero for their members, full retirement at 50 and also full disability benefits in retirement. Not much risk there.

            What you keep missing Walt is that nobody here is objecting to you trying to lower your financial risk by joining a union. What we object to is the union using the force of the government to place your financial risk upon our shoulders. Your unwillingness to see that is just more intellectual dishonesty on your part.

          2. Walt Greenway

            “Your unwillingness to see that is just more intellectual dishonesty on your part.”

            There’s nothing dishonest about having a different opinion. I accept yours, but you fail to accept mine. I believe we have more problems with people not being able to acknowledge other perspectives than the perspectives being different. In fact, this blog has criticism from universities who cancel speakers because their viewpoints do not align with what they want to hear, so how is calling me intellectually dishonest any different?

          3. givemefreedom

            The is a big difference Walt, not even close.

            The university speaker issue is one of censorship and stiffling people expressing their viewpoint.

            Nobody here is stiffling your right to express your viewpoint. My intellectually dishonest comment about you is in regard to how you express and defend your viewpoint. You do it in an intellectually dishonest way.

            You are free to express your differing opinion but you are not free from us challenging you on it and commenting on how you defend your positon. You have clearly shown a lack of principles, morals and ethics in your comments. You do not engage in logical, clear exchanges or debates on the issues. You refuse to acknowledge morals and ethics wrt to freedoms, rights, and government intrusion on citizens.

            In short, you are intellectually dishonest in your posting and you are being called on it. To say that is even remotely the same as the university speakers being harrassed and disinvited is too big of a stretch even for you.

            No one has objected to you expressing your views but we have objected to how you present and defend them.

    2. Che is dead

      Good link. And a great point.

      I am going to steal both, add the links I have to stories of unionized cops and firemen doing the same thing, and use them shamelessly.

  8. juandos

    Again it seems that federal interference in the employment market may have caused in part or whole many of the problems listed in the above comments…

    Forbes 4/08/2013: How Americans Game the $200 Billion-a-Year ‘Disability-Industrial Complex’

    1. Walt Greenway

      People game the system and people fall through the cracks. It’s common for pain to be controlled with medication, so SS disability can’t be collected because the person is not unable to work as determined by SS, but the people are not allowed in the workplace because the same people on the medication are considered intoxicated by workplace insurance companies. Just because a doctor says you can work does not mean an employer will let you work.

      Even if you can collect SS disability, you can’t usually apply until you have been disabled for one year and it often takes another year to collect. Most disability plans are only 6 months or 12 months, so you are looking at not having an income for 12 to 18 months.

      I have to admit I’ve seen more people game the system than fall through the cracks, but that’s not much help for the people who really can’t work or collect disability.

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