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Discussion: (62 comments)

  1. Jane Johnson

    Here is a recent quote from the WH about an issue that liberals rank of very high importance:
    ‘The president “is going to continue to make the case that climate change is already hurting Americans around the country,” said White House spokesman Matt Lehrich. “It will only get worse for our children and grandchildren if we leave it for future generations to deal with.” ‘

    How about substituting the words “federal debt” for “climate change”? It is intriguing that BO supporters are so concerned with the impact of climate change (about which there can be said to be reasonably some amount of serious doubt among scientists) on future generations, but are apparently not at all concerned about the impact of the federal debt on those future generations. How can one explain this inconsistency?

    It must be a case of “follow the money.” Climate concern carries with it large amounts of federal grant money and subsidies for vested interests. But there is no money or influence to be reaped from expressing concern about debt burdens. In fact, incurring debt that is then used to support entitlement programs and consumption is the recipe for winning votes. Actually dealing with unsustainable entitlement programs, which would help dealing with the federal debt, would probably risk losing some votes.

    1. Todd Mason

      Well, yes, let’s follow the money. When the govt gave away free leases in the Gulf to Big Oil in 1996 it p*ssed away $53 billion in future royalties of which about $5 billion has gone missing already. http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/02/oil_royalties
      The Solyndra guarantee at $535 million was a tenth as much to this point and promises to be in the end 1 percent of Big Oil’s payday in a single piece of legislation. So if you go apoplectic about Solyndra but free Gulf leases are fine and dandy by you, how do you explain this inconsistency?

      1. mesa econoguy

        Apologies, Jane, I’ll field this one:

        Obama “green” multi-billion dollar fail:

        1. Evergreen Solar ($25 million)*
        2. SpectraWatt ($500,000)*
        3. Solyndra ($535 million)*
        4. Beacon Power ($43 million)*
        5. Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
        6. SunPower ($1.2 billion)
        7. First Solar ($1.46 billion)
        8. Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
        9. EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)*
        10. Amonix ($5.9 million)
        11. Fisker Automotive ($529 million)
        12. Abound Solar ($400 million)*
        13. A123 Systems ($279 million)*
        14. Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($700,981)*
        15. Johnson Controls ($299 million)
        16. Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
        17. ECOtality ($126.2 million)
        18. Raser Technologies ($33 million)*
        19. Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)*
        20. Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)*
        21. Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)*
        22. Range Fuels ($80 million)*
        23. Thompson River Power ($6.5 million)*
        24. Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)*
        25. Azure Dynamics ($5.4 million)*
        26. GreenVolts ($500,000)
        27. Vestas ($50 million)
        28. LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power ($151 million)
        29. Nordic Windpower ($16 million)*
        30. Navistar ($39 million)
        31. Satcon ($3 million)*
        32. Konarka Technologies Inc. ($20 million)*
        33. Mascoma Corp. ($100 million)

        And Turd, you’re worried about tax cuts?

        1. mesa econoguy

          Oh, sorry, forgot this:

          *Denotes companies that have filed for bankruptcy.

          1. Todd Mason

            * Denotes what Mesa left out from the Heritage Foundation’s screed on solar energy guarantees.
            “CORRECTION:
            Figures for four companies have been updated: Beacon Power received $43 million from the U.S. government, not $69 million as originally reported. Azure Dynamics received $5.4 million from the federal government, not $120 million as originally reported. Compact Power Inc. received $151 million as part of the stimulus, not $150 million as originally reported. Willard and Kelsey Solar Group received $700,981 in government funding, not $6 million as originally reported.
            The following companies have been removed from the original list: AES’s subsidiary Eastern Energy, LSP Energy, Schneider Electric, and Uni-Solar did not receive government-backed loans, based on additional research. The National Renewable Energy Lab did received $200 million in stimulus funding, but it is a government laboratory.”
            Other than that, we’re just good ole researchers suckin up to the money.

            If EVERY solar loan failed, taxpayers would be out about $10 billion or 20 percent of Big Oil’s haul in one law. http://www.factcheck.org/2012/06/romneys-solar-flareout/

          2. mesa econoguy
          3. mesa econoguy

            Gosh Turd, what’s wrong?

            Kathy Sibelius got you tongue?

          4. Todd Mason
          5. mesa econoguy

            And?

            Non-sequitur, suckbag.

            How does this bolster your facile idiotic position in any way?

        2. Benjamin Cole

          Mesa–don’t forget the renewable greenie-weenie energy program that dwarfs all others: Ethanol or pink moonshine, hammer & sickle juice.
          900,000 barrels a day by federal diktat.

          1. Todd Mason

            by federal diktat by Dubya, yes.

          2. mesa econoguy

            How so?

            Name the statutes.

          3. Todd Mason
          4. mesa econoguy

            Are you suggesting that the leftist EPA ethanol mandate somehow costs more than the bizarre CO2 (which is not a pollutant) pollution mandate?

          5. Benjamin Cole

            Bush said, “I’m an ethanol man.” He even tried to mandate cellulose ethanol. Like defense spending, mostly a sop to lardsnufflers…and no, Obama is not better…

          6. mesa econoguy

            Ethanol is one of the dumbest ideas in the history of this country, irrespective of origin.

            Turd is another.

          7. Todd Mason

            Nope answering your question of which statute gave ADM the ability to turn corn into money. Here is another interesting legislative fact from DOE:

            “The Loan Programs consist of three separate programs managed by two offices, the Loan Guarantee Program Office (LGP) and the Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Loan Program Office. LPO originates, guarantees, and monitors loans to support clean energy projects through these programs. The programs are:

            Section 1703: Under Section 1703 of Title XVII, [Energy Policy Act of 2005] DOE LGP is authorized to guarantee loans for projects that employ new or significantly improved energy technologies and avoid, reduce or sequester air pollutants or greenhouse gases.
            Section 1705: Under Section 1705 of Title XVII, added by the American Reinvestment and Recovery Act (ARRA) [2009], DOE LGP is authorized to guarantee loans for certain clean energy projects that commenced construction on or before September 30, 2011. The Section 1705 program expired, pursuant to statute, on September 30, 2011 and will actively monitor projects that previously received loan guarantees under the 1705 program. LPO will no longer issue new loan guarantees under the 1705 program.
            Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing (ATVM): Under Section 136 of the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007, DOE is authorized to provide direct loans to finance advanced vehicle technologies.”

            Three laws, one by O, two be Dubya. Two still operating, neither of them O’s.

            Too bad the teabaggers are Koch brothers’ sock puppets. There is plenty of crony capitalism out there that sufficient numbers of Ds and Rs would jump on in a minute.

          8. mesa econoguy

            Incorrect.

            The EPA easily wins the most moronic and dangerous leftist agency award.

            Why do you fellate them so much, Turd?

          9. mesa econoguy

            PS, you may want to have a look at this link about the eeeeevil Koch Brothers ™ from Dr Perry’s post here:

            http://www.aei-ideas.org/2014/02/friday-morning-linkage/

          10. Todd Mason

            Just sayin Dubya and a Republican congress added taxpayers as guarantors of DOE alt energy loans in 2005 cuz dependence on foreign oil had ginned up a Mesa serenade. (The sky is falling! The sky is falling!) How is that working out?
            As for the Koch brothers I believe the point of a sock puppet is to conceal the identity of the hand. Or to distract rubes like Mesa like the other hand does its thing.

          11. mesa econoguy

            And as was stated before, at least some of that activity resulted in tax revenue accrual to government.

            Nothing compares to the destruction of the Obama green energy debacles, most of which were direct taxpayer giveaways to political supporters. It continues to weigh on the already struggling economy.

            Fools like Turd have to distract and obfuscate by blaming Bush or the eeeeeevil Koch Brothers ™ to avoid the embarrassment and failures of their policies.

          12. Todd Mason

            Amazing consistency, Mesa. On the subject of alt energy loans guarantees you also know diddly and squat. Under Sec 1703. passed by Dubya and a here-take-an=extra-billion Congress run by Rs, DOE backed loans for NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS (!!!??) Here is the CBO on the prospect of those guarantees coming into play. http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/ftpdocs/122xx/doc12238/08-03-nuclearloans.pdf
            The two loan programs have several things in common. Regular ole power utilities got most of the money. NRG claimed about a third of O’s money for generating-plant sized solar installations which at least will generate power, if not buckets of tax revenues. (NRG paid no taxes in 2012.)
            The second is that the only green that matters in utility executive suites is money. “Why, yes, clearly there is a pressing problem of national security that can only be fixed by Uncle Sugar laying some green on us.” Only it wasn’t a problem of national security, eh?
            Now you tell me. Is it possible for sock puppets like Mesa to get at least one clue?

          13. mesa econoguy

            Amazing stupidity Turd.

            On the subject of productive and semi-productive economic activity, you don’t know jack shit.

            All of us are highly impressed at your ability to cite arcane instances of ACTIONS WHICH RESULTED IN ECONOMIC ACTIVITY, specifically power production, but we’re more than amused at your total inability to understand that 1) we really don’t give 2 shits about who does these things, and 2) the Obama green energy debacle is far, far larger than your insipid example.

            Keep trying; maybe you can find a string of 15 – 20 failures, where power plants were destroyed along with economic value.

            PS, you can take your CBO projections, and shove them back up your ass, too.

          14. Todd Mason

            “we really don’t give 2 shits about who does these things”

            Hahahahaha. Teabagger ignorance is exceeded only by its hypocrisy.

          15. mesa econoguy

            You are an imbecile wrapped in a moron surrounded by an idiot.

      2. mesa econoguy

        The inconsistency, asshole, is that my taxpayer money was given away with zero return, at my expense.

        The oil leases you mention produced taxable revenue.

        Now please, shut the fuck up, and go directly to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200, you financial dumfuck.

      3. When the govt gave away free leases in the Gulf to Big Oil in 1996“…

        Well todd govt was giving something away that didn’t belong to them in the first place…

        The federal government was extorting even more money from the private sector over and above taxes…

        1. Todd Mason

          Ummm, you and I as citizens own the mineral rights under public lands, including the Gulf. By your logic, you don’t own your car. Let’s meet up so you can hand over your keys.

          1. Ummm, you and I as citizens own the mineral rights under public lands, including the Gulf“…

            Really todd?!?!

            What part of the Constitution is that?

        2. mesa econoguy

          Yes juandos, but you see in Turd world, everything which you don’t own directly belongs to government.

          1. everything which you don’t own directly belongs to government“…

            Well if that’s the case todd and his fellow travelers seem to have a feudal outlook on life…

            Actually what it sounds like is more of that negative liberties song & dance that some alledged constitutional scholar was moaning about not being in the constitution, mesa

        3. Todd Mason

          You really are idiots. Public lands, as in “of or concerning the people as a whole.” We own it. The govt administers it.

          1. Todd Mason

            Purchase: Louisiana Territory. New owners, We the People, U. States of America; Agent: Thos Jefferson.

            So I gather you don’t believe in property rights.

          2. Purchase: Louisiana Territory. New owners, We the People, U. States of America; Agent: Thos Jefferson“…

            Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

            OK todd which president purchased the Gulf of Mexico and who did that president buy it from?

          3. Todd Mason

            Didn’t have to buy it. Came with the deal. Sovereignty to 12 miles offshore. Economic control to 200 miles or the continental shelf. World standard. Norway’s sovereign fund, at $818B amounts to $150k/Norwegian mann, kvinne og barn.

      4. Notice Turd compares money Obama already pissed away on his green jobs cronies to an estimate over the next 25 yrs. Apples and oranges. From his link: “According to the Government Accountability Office it’ll come to $53 billion over the next 25 years. “

        How much you suppose the Democrats will stick the taxpayers on behalf of their green rent seekers in the next quarter century?

        In order to promote the extraction of certain kinds of natural resources, the Interior Secretary may exercise powers under the Outer Continental Shelf Lands Act and the Deep Water Royalty Relief Act of 1995 to grant royalty relief to drillers. In the mid 1990s, when the latter law was passed, fossil fuel prices were low, so certain types of drilling projects seemed uneconomical without government assistance. The subsidies took the form of relieving companies from having to pay federal royalties on the resources they extracted.

        http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jun/16/edward-markey/markey-says-oil-companies-pay-nothing-gulf-drillin/

        1. Todd Mason

          Glad to see you doing some research. Now put some numbers to “money O p*ssed away.” Could it be less than Big Oil has ripped off in the Gulf so far? (Why, yes, it is. at ~ $1 bill heading to $2.7 billion according to an independent study.)

  2. mesa econoguy

    Still?

    The problem is the demographic squeeze, which is bankrupting the country, courtesy of massive euro-style welfare programs unforeseen as a problem by the leftists who constructed them.

    Our current configuration has 2 or 3 years left.

    Then the problems really start.

    You think the debt ceiling is a problem?

    LOL

    Just wait…

    1. Todd Mason

      The sky is falling! The sky is falling! Wait. [Mesa runs to the window. Comes back dejected. Perks up.] The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

      1. mesa econoguy

        No it’s not!

        I’m Turd, Dammit!

        The economy is fine!

        Absolutely nothing to see here!!!! Go about your business!!!

        http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2014/02/20140213_gdp.png

        [as predicted]

      2. mesa econoguy

        Question for you Turd:

        What rate of economic growth, approximately, is required to pay your illegitimate kids government benefits?

        1. Todd Mason

          I believe the point of this thread is does high debt threaten growth, and researchers published by the IMF say “weak correlation.”

          Ya know if you stuck to the subject and assumed a style that is less,,,,, diarrhetic, you’d come off less ….. ADHD.

          1. mesa econoguy

            And the IMF is incorrect.

            Do you work there?

            It might explain a lot.

          2. Why would anyone listen to the IMF in the 1st place?

          3. mesa econoguy

            Dear IMF,

            You should probably rethink your position.

            Signed,

            Japan

          4. “Weak correlation”

            You conveniently appear to buy into this nonsense, and yet you never miss an opportunity to bash the Bush tax cuts, Turd.

      3. mesa econoguy

        Oh, don’t believe me?

        Fine, here’s Bloomberg survey:

        http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2014/02/20140214_gdp.png

        Getting the macro picture yet, fool?

      4. mesa econoguy

        This must really piss you off to watch how right I am.

        1. Todd Mason

          by federal diktat by Dubya, yes.

          1. mesa econoguy

            Ladies & Gentlemen, I give you, The Idiot, squared

          2. by federal diktat by Dubya, yes“…

            Ahhh todd, taking lessons from the Kenyan Kommie Klown

        2. Todd Mason

          Think you could find any source that is not a “batshit crazy Austrian economics finance blog”? http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge

          1. mesa econoguy

            Turd, just for 1 second, let me explain to you several things:

            1. Bloomberg is a subscription service, about $1600/month, well beyond your means, and since I use mine for work purposes only, zerohedge allows me to reference all the shit that punches your face, without violating absurd rules, otherwise I would do much worse than this;
            2. Apparently you do not understand that Bloomberg is short, like you, and that he is wrong, also like you, but has far, far more money than you; and,
            3. Inventory build accounted for an enormous amount of Q4 2013 GDP, which will be decimated shortly by revsions; and,
            4. My prediction when Obamascare passed back in 2010 that GDP would not exceed 2% holds true

          2. Todd Mason

            Umm, you didn’t link Bloomberg. You linked a batshit crazy blog that purports to present Bloomberg data.

          3. mesa econoguy

            Ummm, yes I did.

            Go figure again, asshole.

          4. mesa econoguy

            Here’s where that comes from, dumbfuck:

            http://www.bloombergbriefs.com/economics/

            And most of that is wrong, too.

            You go pay that fee, shitbag. You’re Mikey Bloomberg’s target audience now.

          5. Todd Mason

            No it doesn’t come from there at all. I link Bloomberg stories right along. Then again, unlike you, no one does my thinking for me.

          6. mesa econoguy

            Um, yes it does, but I can’t help you with your level of stupidity.

          7. So what is so attractive about the Keynesian parasite model of economics todd?

          8. Think you could find any source that is not a “batshit crazy Austrian economics finance blog?“…

            Hmmm, so you think Keynesian parasitism is the only way to go, eh?

      5. Turd’s old and retired. He already got his, so why should he give a shit about the millions of people out of work (thanks largely to constant poison injections from his heroes) and the super volcano of debt Obama is passing on to future generations?

        He’s what we call a “greedhead.”

  3. mesa econoguy

    Here’s the problem:

    Both SSDI and OASDI trust funds will exhaust themselves by 2020.

    That’s 5 years. No one is talking about this. Anyone telling you otherwise is lying and/or fucking ignorant, like Larry G.

    What we have now is political dysfunction preventing any temporary remedy, thanks to Turd and his family “gaming the system.”

    When that happens, automatic cuts will take place, similar to the sequester, and President Hitlary and the Democratic Party will dictate where your childrens savings will be used:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/12/us-eu-banks-savings-idUSBREA1B1ZI20140212

    This is not a drill.

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